Americans Are Very Concerned About The Domestic Political Situation In Albania

Ambassador John L. Withers II Interview With Gazeta Shqiptare (December 10, 2009)

Anila Basha: Thank you, Mr. Ambassador, for accepting my request for an interview with you. My first question to you is this: a diplomat like you has greatly supported Albania for its NATO membership. How do you see the latest political developments in the country? Where is Albania headed?

Ambassador Withers: I am delighted to see you as always. I am delighted to have a chance to talk about different things. I think this is probably a very good day to have an interview, because it is International Human Rights Day and it is the 61st anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I think this gets us off to a very good start.
When you think about Albania, you think about developments, you think about the country’s future. I think anyone who has spent some time here has to be optimistic. There are so many things that are going on, there is so much dynamism, there is so much activism among the people. You see it simply driving around, simply going around the countryside, simply talking to people. If you look a little deeper, Albania is blessed by its geography. It is in between two NATO countries, Greece and Italy, and more than that, it is located ideally on the sea. And so one can see — as Albania progresses and as its infrastructure builds, and because of its good relationships with its neighbors — it’s easy to see the day when Albania could become the center of a network of goods and services coming from the hinterlands of Kosovo and Macedonia and other places, maybe one day from southern Serbia, and the entry point, the gateway for goods and services coming back in. And so you have in a way — maybe it’s kind of like the historic role that Albania served. Albania was always at the center of this part of Europe and it can return there in its modern form. So I think that all of the signs are there for a very, very bright future for Albania.

Anila Basha: Is this real, Mr. Ambassador? Because I could be hasty in saying this, but every foreign diplomat or foreigner visiting Albania is looking at protests in the streets, is looking at buildings being demolished, in what we call the establishment of the rule of law, is looking at a harsh political crisis. So do you really see such an optimistic situation in a time when the political crisis has deepened?

Ambassador Withers: I think that most visitors that come to Albania see much more than that. We ourselves have many visitors who come in, both from surrounding embassies and also from the United States. And the one theme that is constant with all of those people is — and they say it again and again – “we are pleasantly surprised, we are pleasantly surprised.”
I think that people’s expectations of Albania were conditioned by images of things that are now in the past. I think that when they arrive here and when they see the progress in so many different areas, when they talk to Albanians and discover how open and friendly and warm Albanians are towards visitors, when they listen to the aspirations of the Albanian people, and particularly the young people, they are pleasantly surprised, they are optimistic, they are looking at the future of the country with fresh eyes. I think that they virtually all share with me that the future of the country is optimistic. That isn’t to say that it does not require hard work, that isn’t to say that this will be problem free, or that it will be automatic. Nothing, nothing works in that way. But the trends are clear and the trends are upwards, and I think most of us are fully convinced of that.

Anila Basha: In fact, in Albania we would like to see this optimistic climate that you notice in the eyes of a diplomat and of the United States. But I think that there has always been a stalemate and we have reflected it in our media, after the June 2009 elections. According to you, were these elections that have produced this situation for a NATO member up to standards? Or were they based on the OSCE/ODIHR report stating that 1/3 of the ballots were miscounted, or not so well counted. Were these elections held according to the standards of a NATO country?

Ambassador Withers: I think that our position on the June 28th elections is very, very clearly stated in the statement that we issued on September 16th of this year. As a government, we have accepted the results of those elections as certified by ODIHR. We have made that position public. I don’t think that there is very much to add to that.
The one thing that I would say, and I hope that people would remember and will keep in mind, and that is that ODIHR did conclude that there are still many steps to go before the elections reach true international standards. But it also provided through its recommendations a kind of a roadmap forward for future elections. So that whatever advances and whatever shortcomings were witnessed in the past elections can be built upon or addressed, so that at some point in the future, the next time around — the near future, not the distant future — no one will have to debate whether or not these were international standard elections. They will be deemed as such, they would have reached that standard. So I repeat that there is much in that ODIHR report that can be very helpful and very useful to Albania as it moves forward.

Anila Basha: We understand this Mr. Ambassador, but today we are in a semi parliament. In order to fulfill all the ODHIR recommendations it would require that all political forces be in parliament, otherwise there cannot be improvements of the electoral code. Would you justify – not the Ambassador personally, but the United States of America – the stand of Albania’s opposition to remain out of the parliament? It is now close to six months that they are out of the parliament.

Ambassador Withers: I think that we Americans are very concerned about the domestic political situation that we see in Albania today. You have used the word stalemate. The need that we see is for the parties to find a way out of that stalemate in the overall interest of the country. We hoped that NATO membership and the June 28th elections would be a harbinger of a smoother transition to European standards of democracy. Instead we now have a bitter partisan fight, with angry words, with personal insults, with political threats of one type or another going back and forth between these parties; and more importantly, we do not see channels of communication between the parties that would address the situation and hopefully end by resolving this conflict.
The personal insults really have no place in a democratic dialogue. You debate issues, you debate issues strongly, you have disagreements of opinion, but not about the personal backgrounds of your rival party. This kind of behavior is quite detrimental to Albania’s international standards, both as a NATO member and as a future EU candidate. So we call upon the political leadership here, on both sides, to put aside this type of heated rhetoric, and to look for ways to talk to each other, so that the business of the nation can be conducted and can be conducted properly. It is very, very important for those channels which have existed in the past to be opened again, so that the two sides can start finding a resolution to the difficulties that the country faces today.

Anila Basha: I have some questions stemming from your response, but the first one is: Who should find these channels of communications, at a moment when both sides are attacking one another not only politically but also personally. Will the international community intervene or will you leave this issue for the Albanians to resolve?

Ambassador Withers: No, this is an Albanian question. This is for Albanians to resolve among themselves. What we are really seeing here is political behavior that raises questions about the political development, the political evolution of Albania. In countries throughout the world with developed and functioning democracies, even where there is strong disagreement, there are ways for the two sides to communicate, to sit down, to talk, to have dialogue, and that dialogue ultimately leads to a resolution of problems.

Anila Basha: Still, the majority states that dialogue ought to occur in the parliament, but the opposition does not want to enter the parliament. I see the situation without a solution.

Ambassador Withers: There has to be a solution; there has to be a solution. Albania is a democratic country. All of the democratic countries find solutions. It is not beyond Albanians to find these solutions.
We have seen this before. We have seen cooperation before between the two parties. The example that I know best is that despite other political disagreements, the two parties worked very, very well in assuring that the standards necessary for NATO membership were met. They did not always do this in big public displays. There were times when quiet diplomacy was at work, where channels that were not immediately visible were at work. They have done it before; they can do it again.

Anila Basha: I see and hear something that we reflect in our media. There is a change in the international community. In the first months it was often repeated in statements that the opposition should enter the parliament. Today, including your stand, we see a change, the sides should find a solution. In a way, would this justify the opposition’s action of remaining outside the parliament or would we call this a weak point for the Albanian majority?

Ambassador Withers: First, I can only speak for my government, I cannot speak for the international community. I do not really see a change. We have always, if you look at our statements, we have always held to a consistent position. I think that we will continue to hold to that position and to look for a solution to these problems. I cannot remember the date, but a few weeks ago, I made a statement concerning the opposition being in parliament, and I think that everyone agrees that the ultimate goal is for the institutions of the government to function as they were meant to. But we have here now a stalemate, and to reach that goal we’ve got to resolve the stalemate.
I spoke a few moments ago about political development in Albania, about political evolution, and let me try to underscore to you what I mean by that. The fight as viewed from a friend of Albania’s, but a foreigner, an outsider to Albania, seems very much to me to be wasting time, energy, and opportunity. The Fiks Fare TV show regularly shows scenes of terrible poverty in Albania: poor families, mothers and children without enough to eat, and in very, very bad living conditions. Shouldn’t the leadership of this country, shouldn’t the political elite of this country focus on helping those people and not on fighting each other? I visited schools throughout Albania; they need renovations, some of them, they need better equipment, they need further staff training. Shouldn’t the political leaders be focusing on that, rather than trading insults with each other? Everyone, everyone here agrees that the health system needs a major overhaul. Shouldn’t the political parties be working to that end rather than the debate in which they are currently engaged?
And you can go on and on and on with the list. The municipalities here need help, infrastructure needs to be built, there are people here without sufficient clean water or electricity. You know the problems as well or better than I do. And yet what we worry about, and what we see, is that those problems are not being adequately dealt with because the two major political parties are engaged with the struggle between themselves. Should there not be a shift of focus from a factional dispute to genuine leadership aimed at helping real people with their very real problems?

Anila Basha: Just like you, we are aware of these problems and we report daily in our media. But the situation has aggravated and they will not focus on the problems that you present in this interview and about which we write. Anyway, would it be possible at this moment — when the opposition protests about the opening of the ballot boxes, while the majority on the other side would not do this – would it be possible to see an international solution to this, beyond what can come from the Albanians? I have made a comment in the newspaper that we are talking more about the personal debates of Rama’s girlfriends and not dealing with the increase in the price of electricity. What would be the solution? Is the international community going to intervene? After six months we are facing the same situation.

Ambassador Withers: Again, I cannot speak for the international community, but I can say that we Americans consider this an Albanian question to be resolved by Albanians. We are friendsŠ

Anila Basha: Do you give advice?

Ambassador Withers: Ʒe will stand ready to advise or to counsel, but this is an Albanian problem and there must be an Albanian solution coming from Albanians.

Anila Basha: Mr. Ambassador, given that you talked about advice, would you have concrete advice that you could offer to the two main leaders, Berisha for the majority and Rama for the opposition.

Ambassador Withers: As you know, I am very interested in history. Just recently I was reading something on the Covenant of Lezha, March 2nd, 1444. It was a great turning point in Albanian history, in Albania’s concept of the Albanian identity. It was a wonderful moment, it was a special moment. And yet, who was gathered there? There were all of the princes, the Albanian princes that had spent so much time contesting with each other, even warring with other. I do not have all of the names here, but I have a few of them: the Kastrioti, Arianiti, Topiaj, Balsha, Dukagjini. Yet at that moment they found within themselves a greater unity that overcame those elements that had previously divided them. And because they were able to overcome, because they were able to find that quality in themselves, and were able to overcome those differences, they withstood the foreign threat for those many decades.
That was 500, almost 600 years ago, and those men had that capability. I know that today the political leadership of this country, if it looks inside of itself, can find those same qualities to transcend whatever the political disagreements are, in the name of the people and in the name of the nation. I am convinced that the special moment that occurred on March 2, 1444 can be duplicated now with political will and with the intention to place the interest of the people and the nation above a partisan battle.

Anila Basha: Thank you, Mr. Ambassador, for the first section of the interview. I would like to go to some other questions, in some areas where the United States of America has been active in Albania, and one of these areas is the issue of corruption. According to Transparency International, Albania dropped by 10 positions from last year in the corruption scale. Yesterday, we almost heard an alarm, I continue to repeat, from the international community who serve as watchdog for Albania, in regards to the increase of corruption in the country. The US Embassy has a program funded through USAID for reduction of corruption in Albania, and you have invested in some main areas for Albania. How do Ambassador Withers and the USA view the issue of corruption in Albania? What measures could be undertaken?

Ambassador Withers: I think that the Transparency International report was disappointing. A drop of ten places, that places Albania now in the 91st position — that was not good news. I cannot hide the fact that we were disappointed when that report came out. What is important is that a true recognition of corruption take place, and that the battle against corruption take place in reality and not simply in rhetoric. It is necessary wherever corruption exists, on the street level and all the way up through the halls of the highest administration in this land, that corruption be fought, that it not be tolerated. Because corruption is a cancer. And so many of the things that we have talked about earlier, so much of the promise of this land can be bled like a poisoned wound if corruption is not brought under control.
I have spoken about this many times in very strong terms. I will continue to do so. I continue to believe that there are certain things, certain measures that can be taken, that are important, including eliminating the immunity statutes that protect people in government, people in the courts, people in the other aspects of the administration, from being examined, investigated, or ultimately indicted for wrongdoing. The way that the immunity laws are written in Albania, they do not advance justice, they thwart justice. So I think that is a very concrete step, that we have called for again and again, and again, that can be taken.
But let me add one other word on the battle against corruption. The battle against corruption must take place in the arena of law, not in the arena of politics. It is not for politicians, back and forth, this side against that, to try to criminalize the opponent for political purposes or use the media to do it or use political pressure to do it. It is for the judges, it is for the prosecutors, it is for the courts to have that responsibility and to make those decisions, not the politicians.

Anila Basha: As you state these words, and which we do feel about the law and the war against corruption, it looks like the battle is very difficult, and we have heard and seen the battle that the Prime Minister has declared about corruption and mafia, you have seen apartment buildings being demolished right in the center of Tirana during this mandate, while they still existed in the previous one. From your perception, is this a real war on the side of the Government, or is this just a declarative war?

Ambassador Withers: If it is just a battle of just declarations, then that needs to change. Everybody loses, everyone loses, if corruption is not contained and ultimately defeated. Corruption has no redeeming element, it is like drawing the wealth of the nation away from those who produce it and those who deserve it for the enrichment of the few. There is no economic benefit, there is no social benefit, there is no moral benefit. Corruption is poison. And that poison has to be eliminated. The antidote to that must be found and administered, and administered strictly. Because otherwise it is a gaping wound that weakens the entire society. It cannot be allowed to continue. The determination must be to fight it and in the end to conquer it.

Anila Basha: Given that you spoke about the issue of immunity: In fact you talked about it in a recent speech, and the following day the media interpreted it in connection with two ministers in Berisha’s cabinet who in fact are facing major accusations. While you, the following day, were standing next to one of the ministers. Are there two positions in regards to immunity? What happens in reality?

Ambassador Withers: There is only one position, and it is very, very consistent. I have probably spoken on corruption more than any other single topic since I have been here, and I would be very, very happy to have my staff provide you with both the speeches and comments that I have made. And you will see that there is no room for two positions on corruption. One position, a consistent position, and that position can be summed up very, very simply: get rid of it!

Anila Basha: Mr. Ambassador how do you see the separation of powers in Albania? You, meaning the USA, have been a standard bearer of protecting each power and protecting their independence. It looks like at present we are not in that type of situation, the situation has quieted a little, but still there are snags in the functioning of the institutions. I am talking about the judiciary, the prosecutor’s office, the parliament, and lately you have been very outspoken about freedom of media and freedom of speech. So how do you see this?

Ambassador Withers: I think that the most crucial elements of a democracy are independent, pluralistic, democratic institutions. And the emphasis must be on the word “independent.” All of those institutions and organizations that you listed must be able to perform their proper and established role in a democratic society, free from political influence. That is the only way that the inherent protections which the people deserve, not just today, but down through the generations, can be protected.
The independence of the judiciary is essential. There must be a place that people can go with confidence to find justice. The independence of the media is vital. The media must be able to report the news as accurately and as truthfully it can, and it must be able to voice opinions as freely as in any other society, and it must be able to do this without the threat of physical confrontation, without the threat of political interference whether it is from the government or elsewhere. It must be able to do this in the confidence that it is providing information to the public that informs that public and allows that public to make its decision about its own democratic future.
These also are things that I have talked about a great deal. And I talk about them because I firmly believe in them. Without the independence of democratic institutions, the foundations of democracy are weak and the function of democracy becomes extremely difficult.

Anila Basha: Let’s hope that this will happen. I would like to refer to an important issue of bilateral relations of US and Albania. Two important events have occurred, reflected in the media, in regards to the relationship between the two countries. The first one was an increase of Albanian troops in Afghanistan after the request from President Obama, which was positively assessed. The other was the refusal from the Albanians to take in Uighurs in our country, due to Albania’s good relations with China. How do you see this, will it harm Albanian and US relations?

Ambassador Withers: No, I would say that the Albanian American relationship, which has always, always been excellent, is probably stronger today than it ever was. Albania has been one of the most steady, one of the strongest, one of the most cooperative and reliable — I am searching for superlative words here – partners that America has ever had. And we value the Albanian friendship very, very profoundly.
The examples that you cite are just the latest in a long list that we could provide of the very, very positive of the nature of the friendship between our two countries and our two peoples. Young Albanian men and women stood beside young American men and women in Iraq and now they are doing the same in Afghanistan. We are together, we are shoulder to shoulder, we are side by side, and we are heart to heart. And the sense of appreciation for that support from Albania is deep and it is powerful.
One of President Obama’s priorities and of his new administration is to close the Guantanamo prison, and we have searched throughout the world for countries that might help us in accepting more of those detainees. As you know, Ambassador Daniel Fried was here just recently to discuss this issue. And he was deeply appreciative that the Government of Albania would consider accepting more of these detainees. Countries throughout Europe, which Ambassador Fried visited, are assisting us. And if Albania will consider that, again, we will be very appreciative.

Anila Basha: Thank you, Mr. Ambassador, for the good words that you said about the partnership between Albania and the U.S. How do you see the next year for the country? Do you see Albania closer to the EU or far away from the EU, considering that now we are a NATO member country and EU membership is used as a political creed?

Ambassador Withers: I think that we all hope that next year will be a very important year for Albania, and that it can move forward progressively with purpose toward its stated goals. Obviously, one of these is to advance toward EU membership, through EU candidacy. We hope that the measures and the steps that are provided by the EU colleagues will be addressed and will be addressed very seriously by Albania. You have to remember, though, that the U.S. is not a member of the EU. We are a close partner but we are not a member of the EU, so we are not going to have any say over that process, except to do what we can to help Albania help itself.
But I return to my critical message: time is passing, opportunities are being lost to move in exactly those directions, and it must start with looking at the present situation and getting beyond who said this and who has this claim of right or who has that claim of wrong. The situation is real, and is before us, and lots of discussion of things passed and accusations don’t help. The situation must be addressed now realistically. And for that it is necessary for the harsh words and the heated rhetoric to stop, and it is necessary for the two sides to find within them that greater sense of being part of Albania, this wonderful nation, and devoting their efforts to Albania and to the Albanian people rather than continuing the fight among themselves and losing these opportunities.
Calm words, talks, that’s the way forward. And there are many ways that can be done. It doesn’t have to be done in public. It has happened before; I know that it can happen again. But that’s where it has got to start, and it ought to start today.
I was reading the poetry, of a poet that I find that Albanians admire a great deal, Migjeni. He had some words that I read and that were very striking. He wrote a poem called “Poverty”, a very, very powerful poem. And there were lines in it, like this:
“Poverty’s child is raised in the shadows
Of great mansions, too high for imploring voices to reachŢ
We would council the Albanian leaders of today not to live so high above their population and to be so engaged in this conflict of their own that they don’t hear those voices. Now there’s another line:
“Poverty has no good fortune, only rags,
The tattered banners of a hope
Shattered by broken promises.”
This was written 80 years ago. This is not the Albania of today, this cannot be the Albania of today. Today should not be the era of broken promises for those not listening to the cries and the needs of the people. This (era) should be the pledges of the kept word, the kept word to those voters who brought these leaders to power, on both sides. Voters who voted for the one party or voters who voted for another, in the expectation that those leaders, thus empowered, would address the problems of the people who put them there. We should be past the times of great mansions, we should be past the times of broken promises, and that has to start right now — by addressing the situation that is here and getting over it, resolving it, solving it and then moving onward and moving upward.
We are entering the holiday season and looking toward the New Year. I myself will be traveling back to America to be with my family, to celebrate this joyous season and to look forward to a year, a next year that we hope is better than this one. So before we go, I would like to wish all of you here, all of the Albanian people, a wonderful joyous holiday season! When I return from America I look forward to being with you again!